By: colozonan on 9/8/09
mrclm - The facts are clear. Christians have done a marvelous job at pushing gays away from Christ by waving scripture and telling them how wrong they must be by the choice they have made to sin. In fact, for many gay people, there is no choice. My instruction to you to answer my question makes my point that you feel that gay people choose to be gay, and therefore choose to sin. I believe that God makes each one of us in his perfect image - gay or straght. That is an absolute truth. Why must you choose to hold up the bible as a roadblock from participating in Christ's kingdom? I'm certain Christ wouldn't have used these writings in such a way. The facts are that gay people have wonderful relationships with Christ. They are smart, beautiful, caring people who, in many ways, are more like Christ than the average "straight" churchgoer. If their calling in life is to share this passion for Christ throught he pulpit, why on earth would you keep them from serving Christ in this way. It seems very, very petty that you would keep someone - gay or straight - from hearing Christs message because of their sexual orientation. Christ's message of Love for each other is clear. His commandment to us did not say to only love those whom are like us. That is the message of the Bible I get when I read it.

By: mrclm on 9/8/09
I'm not the judge, but scripture does tell us that we need to be discerning, and it also lays out a pattern for correction and reconciliation. I have family members who are gay (no children as your example) and I have an open dialog going on my views, but they know I love them without question. I disagree that I didn't answer your questions, I think I did. Ask again if I missed something. Bible believing Christians are not excluding anyone. They are establishing boundaries and standing for absolute truth. I understand you may struggle with the fact that there are absolute truths, but it doesn't change that they exist.

By: colozonan on 9/7/09
mrclm - You didn't answer my questions. When you choose to exclude people from God's kingdom by condeming their actions you've decided to become judge. Ask yourself then, do you really want that responsibility? What if your child were homosexual, then how would you condem them? Let's get to your real issues. Answer them!

By: mrclm on 9/3/09
The Apostle Paul [in the New Testament] nowhere discusses homosexuality
as an orientation. He discusses behaviors, and he never discusses them in isolation.
When he talks about same-sex behavior it’s in the context of opposite-sex
behavior as well. Paul has a category in which sex is rightfully exercised
and enjoyed—in marriage between a man and a woman—and another category
in which it’s not: for those outside such a marriage. His categories
are not heterosexual and homosexual; they are married or unmarried. We impart
so much of our culture into the way we read the Bible that it keeps us from
hearing the text.

See 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, you don't have to go to Leviticus to see clear teachings of Scripture on this subject.

By: mrclm on 9/3/09
Colozonan - did Christ allow them to remain tax collectors and prostitutes? No, He required repentance and life change. Christ clearly spoke to the thief, the prostitute, the Samarian woman at the well, but the story is the same, these people all repented and experience transformation through Christ. Do we see this in actively gay clergy?

By: birdsofaz on 9/2/09
Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

Both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship.

The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians. Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus. Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean." You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others.

Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them! Why do you think that most people don't know about them?

Read Leviticus 23 to see the detailed regulations concerning "complete rest" on the Sabbath day and demands of animal sacrifices to be carried out according to exact instructions. Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period. Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The next verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself." Most people do not even know that these laws are in the Bible and are demanded equally with all the others.

Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics?

The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses.

Read what Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5 about hypocrites who judge others. "Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves... Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...You hypocrite!"

If you have been led to misuse Leviticus and other parts of the Bible in order to condemn and hate and reject people, you are on the wrong path. Jesus quoted only one passage from Leviticus: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (19:18). Jesus used Leviticus to teach love. Many false teachers use Leviticus and other writings to condemn, humiliate and destroy. I know which approach seems truly Christian to me. Jesus never condemned homosexuals or even mentioned anything that could be taken as a reference to sexual orientation.

Any charge against Gays and Lesbians based on the life and teachings of Jesus has to be dismissed for a lack of evidence!

The use of Leviticus to judge and condemn anyone today is ludicrous and absurd in the light of the total content of the book. To call the content of the Book of Leviticus the "word of God" and try to enforce any part of it today is without support in the teachings of Jesus and in the letters of Paul.

Jesus in Mark 7:18-23 chided his disciples for their lack of spiritual understanding. Jesus and his disciples had been condemned by the religious leaders because they did not wash and eat according to the Law. Jesus said, "Are you too so uncomprehending? Don't you see that whatever goes into your mouth from the outside cannot defile you; because it does not go into your heart, but into your stomach, and is eliminated? (Thus Jesus declared all foods clean."). And Jesus added, "That which proceeds from within you, out of your heart, defiles you. Evil thoughts, abusive sex acts, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting, wickedness, deceit, not caring, envy, slander, arrogance and foolishness: all of these evil things proceed from within and defile you."

Paul also rejected the absolute commands of Leviticus in Colossians 2:8-23, where he said, "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 'Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!' (which all refer to things destined to perish with the using) in accordance with human commandments and teachings? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against human indulgence." (2:20-23). Paul declared in 2:14 that Jesus has "canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us which was hostile to us; and Jesus has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Many people have answered the argument that most of the "abominations" in Leviticus referred to food by saying that the people back then knew that pork was unhealthy, and that is why pigs were declared to be unclean. If you follow that logic, you would declare anything that is unhealthy to be an "abomination." We know that cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, fat food and many other things are unhealthy; so why are they not also called "abominations" and condemned by the rabid Bible literalists with protests and pickets against cigarette machines, all liquor stores and bars, all fast food outlets, and any store that sells anything that is unhealthy? The reason is simple. The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject anyone is impossible to justify in the light of the facts.

Now, let us get on with encouraging Gays back to Church and stop pushing them away.

By: myhatsin on 9/2/09
two simple questions.
Is homosexuality a sin? yes or no?
Would they allow a 26 year old male pastor to have a 17 year old girlfriend, who consented and parents consented, to live with him in a committed relationship? Why, or why not?

By: colozonan on 9/2/09
I believe if you look at what Christ is about, you'll find inclusion into his kindom as his primary focus. How often did he invite the tax collector, prostitute, and others to be part of his journey during his time here on earth? To whom did he preach? When you choose to exclude people from God's kingdom by condeming their actions you've decided to become judge. Ask yourself then, do you really want that responsibility? What if your child were homosexual, then how would you condem them? It's a real question facing many people. We are to strive to be Christ-like, so are we to welcome ANYONE who professes Christ as their savior.

By: Caddyman on 9/2/09
Govtmule your also forgetting that the vote i believe was to allow ministers who are in a "committed homosexual relationship" the ability to preach. Frankly if your committed to someone and to God then why not let them spread Gods word. Or are you thinking that if your children hear that gay minister teach then they'll end up gay too??? The same could be said that if thier parents are bigots, they they might grow up to be as well.... I think the youth tend to take what they have heard and learned and sort it out on thier own. I believe in God, I don't believe that he'd want any less happiness for anyone because of thier attraction for someone of the same gender.

By: CasualObserver on 9/1/09
Hot on the heels of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America’s decision to allow the appointment of non-celibate gays to the clergy, another prominent Christian denomination has decided this week to allow practicing drunkards in the pulpit.

Meeting in Las Vegas, leaders of the Evangelical Lukewarm Christians in Apostasy (ELCA-Not the Lutherans) voted in favor of giving their local congregations the authority to choose ministers or lay leaders who may be in “lifelong, monogamous relationships with alcohol.”

Said the denomination’s president, Ben Halifax, “Since the Lutheran ELCA has courageously decided to ignore the condemnation of homosexuals in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, we figured it was time for our own denomination to ignore the verses’ reference to drunkards and immediately loosen our outdated and unloving restrictions on boozehounds.”

A motion to also include the acceptance of clerical fornicators, adulterers, idolators, thieves, revilers, and swindlers was tabled until next year’s meeting.

The surprise decision to liberalize the church’s drunkard policy came at the perfect time for the denomination’s small branch in Torrance, California, where popular pastor, Glen Morehouse, had been barred from ministry last year due to his open and committed relationship with Johnnie Walker. With the historic vote, Morehouse can now officially stagger back to the pulpit and still maintain his alternative lifestyle.

His eyes reddened by tears of joy and 80 proof Scotch, Pastor Morehouse commended the ELCA (Not the Lutherans) leadership for allowing him to continue in his Kingdom work. “I jes wanna shay, it was sush a prooouu moam comin’ ta shee thish inna histacle vent… Ya no whaa um sayin’? Uh-oh… I thin’ um gonna thro up…”

Martha Wackenhut, Torrance church member and designated driver, also commended the decision, but was much more articulate. “We’re thrilled that the national leadership has finally recognized Pastor Glen’s value as a non-sober man of God,” she said on behalf of the congregation. “Whenever we’ve needed his pastoral advice and leadership, he’s always been there for us on his favorite barstool down at O’Malley’s. Quite frankly, if this vote hadn’t gone through, we’re pretty sure we would’ve lost Pastor Glen to the Presbyterians.”

Advocates of change in the ELCA (Not the Lutherans) rejoiced after the vote and were later found at the Hard Rock Cafe celebrating their victory with mojitos and Jagermeister shots. “We’re toasting to greater fairness tonight,” explained Pete Lutowski, executive director of Bottoms Up, a drunk rights advocacy group within the church. “Drunken clergy are now free to be who they are and enjoy the love and companionship of their alcoholic buzz.”

“Bottom line, this is a heart issue,” added Lutowski. “Okay, it’s a liver issue, too, but it’s mostly a heart issue. It’s time to quit acting like pharisaical tee-totalers who are hung up on judgmental prooftexts and start showing some Christian love to our drunken brethren who want nothing more than to give out sloppy back slaps and shout, ‘I love you, man!’ to an unsaved stranger. If getting sloshed is so wrong, how come Jesus changed water into wine and jump-started the first Christian drinking party two thousand years ago?”

“A-mehn, bruther!” shouted Pastor Morehouse from the floor.

By: mrclm on 9/1/09
MNQueenie,
You set up a straw man argument and knock it down well. But the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. To think otherwise is the good old heresy that was propagated by Marcion of Sinope. The OT does speak more of God's wrath without question, but it is still the story of God's plan for man's redemption, and to imply otherwise is aberrant theology. This side of Christ's death and resurrection Christians have a mediator, one who stands in the sinner's place, taking the wrath of God - that one is Christ. So the wrath is not gone in the New Testament. Read Paul for a while, especially in the book of Romans and it becomes clear. All have fallen short of God's glory, not just one group, but ALL. Those who will be saved from the wrath are those who have a defender, a mediator, a Savior.

The Biblical definition of "slave" is not the same as the 1840's Southern state slavery we as Americans are familiar with. In some cases it was worse that that. In others, it was people who entered into a servants role willingly. The word has a much broader meaning and you are failing to recognize that because it make for far more inflammatory print.

You quote a number of OT laws that no longer apply unless you are a practicing Jew. As Christian followers, you are freed from these, just as circumcision is no longer the law. Just as you can drink milk while eating a steak now. Just as women don't have to move to the outskirts of town now when they are having their period. But again, don't let solid theology get in the way of your swinging at windmills.

Get yourself a copy of "Grasping God's Word" by Duvall and Hays, it'll help you sort some of this out.

By: govtmule on 9/1/09
Mnqueenie,
You seem to be missing the point of why some feel that the ELCA has made an error. The issue is should an admitted practicioner of homosexual acts (not someone who has feelings, urges, tendencies or even confusion) be allowed to lead a congregation. It is not the fact that they have committed what may be a sin (I'll not decide that) it is that they refuse to turn from that sin. The sin represents a part of their life that they refuse to submit to the Lord. I don't think most of us would have an issue with a celibate homosexual, a homosexual that has previously been active but has made a decision to refrain from that act (even if they were to backslide from time to time). It is the position of their will above the Lords that is objectionable. If homosexuality is a sin then there is a problem, if not there is no problem. As I understand the Bible and God's designs for the human race homosexuality is a sin - a willful misuse of God's treasure. The sin may not be as agregious as others and can be legitimized in the minds of many. At the same time I do not feel the ELCA should allow unrepentant drunkards, abusers, gamblers, and importantly - people filled with pride to lead congregations either.

If they are willing to submit to the Lord's will in every aspect of their life - regardless of their background they will do fine leading a church.

By: Caddyman on 9/1/09
Very well put Mnqueenie!!!!

By: mnqueenie on 9/1/09
Many are outraged by the ELCA’s recent acceptance of allowing homosexual individuals in committed relationships to minister to a congregation. Why? Because the Bible says homosexuality is a sin?

Doesn’t the Bible also say that a parent should kill a child who is rebellious (Exodus, 20:15-17)? Do we ok that? Do we run out and beat our children if they misbehave? No. So what part of the Bible are you going to listen to? If you want to believe that homosexuality is a sin, shouldn’t you also believe it is right to kill your children if they are impetuous?

Additionally, the Bible tells that slaves need to obey their earthly masters (Colossians 3:22). Today slaves are illegal. It is seen as immoral and wrong to own another human being. The Bible also says that women should work at home and be submissive to her husband (Titus 2:5). Deuteronomy 23:2 says “A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord”.

Adultery is also discussed in the Bible and Deuteronomy 22:22 says “If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die”. In the Gospels’ of Matthew, Mark and Luke say that divorcing your spouse and then marrying another is adultery. How many of us have been divorced and remarried and yet we are welcomed into the congregation?

Do we not have adulterers within our congregation? Bastards: children born out of wedlock? Have we forsaken them and not welcomed them into God’s house? Why do you choose to live by some words and not others? Why do you believe to only follow some of God’s word but not others? Is it because we have become more civilized? If you choose to follow only some of the readings in the bible but not others, that is hypocritical.

The Bible is a book. Some argue that the Bible is incomplete, that there are books that were left out of the Bible. Why? Who decides what is right? Experience tells us that the winners of war determine how history is recorded. Is the same not true for the Bible? Were some opinions overpowered and therefore their books were left out of the Bible?

The Bible is a collection of letters, memories, and stories. Again, the Bible is a book of God’s words but is not all inclusive. Is the Bible intended for doctrine, devotion, stories of legacies and legends, or to share the Word of God and His love? I believe it is a guide to teach us more Christian ways, to love, forgive, but the Bible it isn’t the end all be all.

The Old Testament tells of God’s anger and wrath, that He is a jealous God, One that will punish. The New Testament tells a different story, it tells of God’s unconditional love, His forgiving love, and His undying love for us.

Who are we to judge others? Shouldn’t we live by the examples in the Bible rather than the judgmental words? The Bible also condemns adultery but twice this issue has been presented to the church. How many left then? If you can forgive and excuse adultery and why do you choose to discriminate against the homosexual population?

I can find scientific evidence that leans toward homosexuality being a genetic malfunction. Studies in animals have found homosexual dolphins, sheep, birds, monkeys, and penguins. I am sure others can find studies that say homosexuality is a choice. For most, homosexuality is not a choice but rather something you are born with. I have genetic malfunctions in my body. My body developed differently than a normal person. Am I therefore not worthy of God’s love? So here we stand at a crossroad, who is right and who is wrong?

I believe in the 10 Commandments and nowhere does it say anything against homosexuality. Aren’t the 10 Commandments God’s law given to Moses? I believe that God loves us all. I will not discriminate against homosexual persons because they too are children of God. I do not profess to be knowledgeable of the Bible, nor the best Christian, but I believe my God is a loving God, which is kind, loving, understanding, compassionate, and forgiving.

I choose to stay with the ELCA. I believe it is a wise and educated decision they made.

By: Townie on 9/1/09
"Bluejaymom"
You are SO wrong! The main job of the leader of a congregation is to preach the word of God, and we all know the "word of God" when it comes to homosexuality.

I cannot find statistics that show it is the "number 1" cause of suicide for young men. Could you please provide that study?

By: Bluejaymom on 9/1/09
The fear of accepting homosexuality is the number 1 cause of suicide for teen boys. Is this what God intended? Our children killing themselves because people won't accept them for who they are? As leaders in the church - you don't get to 'pick and choose' who is God's child and who isn't, and who you will accept into your congregation. On the flip side, 'picking and choosing' your pastor based on their sexual orientation is as racist as black vs. white. Seems like the last time we had 'picking and choosing' we called is segregation... wake up Waseca.

By: TCO2 on 8/30/09
It is called free will, God lets us make our own choices, wrong or right. God does have a plan for each and everyone of us. All we have to do is ask.

By: 19thHole on 8/29/09
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I believe most people posting here will recognize this quote and who said it!

By: needtoknow on 8/29/09
Read Romans 1:26, 27 & 32. That is from God and very specific.

By: Caddyman on 8/29/09
Thank you Pastor Poorman, you've come out of the closet and proclaimed to the rest of us that your a bigot. I see by some of the postings on here there are quite a few that are cheering from the closet door that you forgot to shut.

I cant see why its such a bad thing to recognize when two adults are in a committed relationship. We all know that those that are heterosexual are living by the gold standard and they NEVER have a sexual thought or action with someone other than thier spouse... yeah right!!

By: Krosato on 8/28/09
Townie-

In your own words, homosexuality is "wrong and should not be tolerated." If the point you're trying to make now is that you didn't take that guidance from the Bible, then I guess you just came up with it on your own? It's just some sort of gut feeling that you have? In that case, you believe it acceptable to discriminate.

You think "separate but equal" is okay. It, apparently, is justifiable in your own mind to segregate and take rights away from an entire group of people just because you don't "feel like" they should have them.

A bigot is a person who is obstinately and irrationally, often intolerantly, devoted to his or her own opinion, especially one who regards or treats those of differing devotion with hatred and intolerance. I would encourage you to remember this the next time you judge a people based on your intolerant musings.

By: Caddyman on 8/28/09
Just an item for thought, Masturbation could also be labeled as a sin but I think we all know that without it you'd have alot more road rage than we have now.

But seriously I am going to live my life to my standards and if you don't like how I live my life and contribute to society too bad, so sad, waaaa waaaahhhhhhh. To say that homosexuality is as bad as pedophilia is taking it to a personal level here. I was molested as a child and I believe that God intervened and had something to do with the demise of my attacker. The similarities of two consenting adults engaging in a loving relationship and pedophilia are NONE. Shame on you for drawing that similarity!!!

By: Ditchcreek on 8/28/09
Science and medicine does not trump God's word.

There are some "scientific" theories that some people have an extra Y chromosone (XYY) which make them double likely to commit violent crimes. Does that make violent crime acceptable?

Does depression make suicide socially acceptable?

There is a growing body of scientific evidence that alcoholism has a genetic component. Should alcoholics continue to drink?

By: Townie on 8/28/09
"Krosato"
Please name one post here where I brought up the Bible or God.

Thanks!

By: Krosato on 8/28/09
Your thoughts about being born gay are, "until it is 100% scientifically and medically proven DO NOT waste my time please."

You are so vocal and set on your views in this matter. Isn't it interesting that your thoughts and feelings on this issue are a direct influence from a Bible and a God that are also NOT scientifically proven. So, who's time are you really wasting? It seems to me that if you want to use the argument for one, you must use it for the other. You cannot only use the science argument when it suits you, and pocket it when it does not.

By: Ditchcreek on 8/28/09
Bravo Pastor. Thank you for taking a stand on the issue! We need more people voicing their opposition.

By: doglover on 8/28/09
I don't think AstroComfy is being sarcastic. It is the only post that actually makes sense.

By: Ditchcreek on 8/27/09
Dearest Astrocomfy. I recognize your sarcasm... it's so hilarious! People should speak out on the moral wrongs of others and reflect on their own moral imperfections. How do you think our laws were developed? I could unload a laundry list of my own moral wrongs!!! However, I am not going to recommend that my children commit the same mistakes. I believe that homosexuality, incest, polygamy, murder, lying, stealing, cheating, drinking excessively (I like beer too), etc. are all morally wrong. Where do we draw the line? How do we draw the line if we, as a society, do not express our opinions on ethical or moral behavior? Is it ok to punch someone in the gut if they disagree with you?

I can't wait to read your next sarcastic and empty comments in response to this OPINION.

By: AstroComfy on 8/27/09
No, I'm being serious, this is really good! I think more religious people should speak out on the moral wrongs of others, more often even. It really helps the cause.

By: Ditchcreek on 8/27/09
Kimbre,
I too believe that Jesus died so that we will be saved. This is not a debate about whether God cares about us or if we are forgiven.

It's a debate about a church supporting a sin. It's the wrong decision.

What if the sin was incest, pedophilia, or polygamy? Will the church or our legal system eventually approve of a pastor having multiple wives? Will our government allow it? Why don't they? I love women, why can't I have 5 or 6 wives? Our society will eventually test the limits of these sins as well.

Folks and Freddyfox... who's preaching here? Like you all, I am just stating my opinions and beliefs.

By: Kimbre on 8/27/09
I'm not here to argue with anyone, only to respectively add my opinion. I have been a member of the Lutheran church for my entire life and I am neither saddened nor happy about this decision. I am of the persuasion that homosexuality is not chosen...I did not "Chose" to be heterosxual and I don't believe gay people chose to be gay. Given my beliefs on that, I don't understand them denying themselves a loving, committed relationship with a same sex partner. Now, that being said, I don't think God cares who brings people to Him; whether they be gay or straight, man or woman, adult or child. He loves us all; none more than any other and died for the sins of the world. Even if you see homosexuality as a sin, it is not possible for any of us to stop sinning, many of us committing the same sin again and again. The good news, we are forgiven. I just think that no matter how you look at this, I don't believe that Jesus would shun anyone who wants to tell the Good News about Him.

By: freddyfox on 8/26/09
I'm afraid you are a poor man. I believe you are called to minister to everyone.

By: Ditchcreek on 8/26/09
What will our society accept next... pedophilia, incest. Who said anything about hate! I will not only pray for the ELCA church, I will pray for the people that are committing homosexual sins. I will pray for myself... a sinner. Unfortunately, society will continue to modify the bible to make it fit their lifestyles.

Bigotry is the complete intolerance of any belief or creed. Astrocomfy please think about your accusations and then please look in the mirror. I don't believe that you can tolerate the Christian belief system.

By: AstroComfy on 8/26/09
I agree with everything said here, and thanks to everyone for really sticking to your own ideals and what's right morally for yourself. If you can't impose your own morals and faith on others, then this just isn't America. Blind hate and bigotry is the best road to take, and also the most Christian road. Keep it up!

By: Ditchcreek on 8/26/09
Well put. Thank you for explaining that that this is not a decision shared among all synod's. The decision is wrong. We must pray for the ELCA church.

By: Caddyman on 8/26/09
You could have fooled me the way comments have been flying on this issue. Your not judging or ignorant unless it comes close to you. There is only one person that I worry about judging whether or not I am a good person, christian, and human being. When the day comes and If I get to look into the Lord's eyes, I will most likely fall to my knees and thank him for allowing me the free will to live my life.

By: myhatsin on 8/26/09
I know for a fact that there are people in Waseca(Pleasantville) who are of that persuasion, personally. It's not about judging or ignorance, it's about acknowledging the Truth, and sometimes the truth hurts, but it's the first step to healing.

By: Caddyman on 8/26/09
I suppose you are of the mindset that there arne't any individuals that would engage in homosexual activities in the Waseca area.... Please don't be that narrow minded. What harm is there to anyone if two people choose to engage in a committed relationship??? I don't care to know what my neighbors do behind closed doors. I would think you'd afford others that same right.

By: mrclm on 8/26/09
Love does not mean letting everyone do what they want. That is the exact opposite of love. Love means speaking truth at times, giving correction and rebuke to the wayward - doing it in a loving way. Failure to do this would be the opposite of love. If I see someone I care about veering down the wrong path, be that sexually or whatever, I MUST address it with them or I am failing to love them as Christ loves the world.

By: Townie on 8/26/09
"myhatsin"
AMEN AMEN AMEN.

By: myhatsin on 8/26/09
Caddyman, it also says in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin, but they're choosing to ignor that. When it says to love your fellow man, it's not to be taken literally! We are all born into sin one way or the other. It just depends on if we act on that behavior, similar to what govtmule has said.

By: Townie on 8/26/09
"Caddyman"

My vote is NO(a million times over)then. And what if they are not my "neighbor"?

And why is it that people always play the "it's 2009" crap? Just because it's 2009 does that mean we need to change everything? I for one do not think so.

By: Caddyman on 8/26/09
To say that someone isn't born with a gay predisposition is ludicrous. You might as well say there aren't any stupid genes either but look around you and you'll find people doing many stupid things. I believe the vote was to allow gay clergy that are in committed relationships the same priviledges as heterosexual clergy. Its the year 2009 and isn't it in the bible somewhere to Love your fellow man, and respect your neighbors.

By: Townie on 8/26/09
I agree. Neither one of us is right or wrong until further notice. Right now, we are going off opinions and I have very strong opionions opposing that lifestyle. However, I DO respect your opionion as well.

By: TheJuniper on 8/26/09
"townie"

Until it is proven, then, you cannot say that it is NOT possible. So by your own argument, you have agreed with me. Thank you.

By: TheJuniper on 8/26/09
And just so we're clear, I'm not saying that this is the case with all homosexuals. I do believe that there is choice involved with some people, to a degree, and that their choice is more to get a "high" than to be happy with a life partner. And some are probably just looking for attention. Anne Heche comes to mind.

By: Townie on 8/26/09
Please don't waste my time with all that crap. I also looked and found many articles that contradicted what you just sent me. There is no doubt that there are articles claiming proof for both sides of the argument. Until it is 100% scientifically and medically proven DO NOT waste my time please.

By: TheJuniper on 8/26/09
"Townie"

That was just one example. Would you like others? Biological research shows that homosexuals are biologically, physically, different from heterosexuals. Here are some studies:

Ingebog Ward did a study titled "Prenatal Stress Feminizes and Demasculinizes the Behavior of Males" www.sciencemag.org. The study is as follows: "Male rats were exposed to prenatal or postnatal stress, or both. The prenatally stressed males showed low levels of male copulatory behavior and high rates of female lordotic responding. Postnatal stress had no effect. The modifications are attributed to stress-mediated alterations in the ratio of adrenal to gonadal androgens during critical stages of sexual differentiation. Specifically, it appears that stress causes an increase in the weak adrenal androgen, androstenedione, from the maternal or fetal adrenal cortices, or from both, and a concurrent decrease in the potent gonadal androgen, testosterone." Meaning: Stress during critical points in gestation can alter the amount of testosterone given to the fetus, making that fetus more likely to be homosexual. This is concurrent with the medical fact that fetuses are, in the beginning of gestation, ALL female. The male cromosome does not take over until later in the gestational period.

Simon LeVay did studies on the differences between the brain of homosexual males and heterosexual males, with this conclusion:
"LeVay found a significant difference in the size of the INAH-3 in heterosexual men and homosexual men. The INAH-3 was two to three times larger in heterosexual men than in gay men. He found no significant difference in size between homosexual men and women. Regarding his results, LeVay said, "The discovery that a nucleus differs in size between heterosexual and homosexual men illustrates that sexual orientation in humans is amenable to study at the biological level." " http://www.simonlevay.com/the-biology-of-sexual-orientation

By: poisenthewell on 8/26/09
"townie" Who are you to say what is "WRONG"? It is this intolerance that keeps the religious persecution of anything you don't agree with alive.

By: govtmule on 8/26/09
Homosexuality is an act - not a biological trait. All persons are born with a sexual desire and the will to act or not act on those desires. If a straight Lutheran Minister feels a compulsion to have relations with several women in his congregation is this acceptable to the Lutheran church? I am quite certain that the mere desire for relations with a person of the same sex (or opposite sex) has never stopped someone from achieving a position in the clergy. Taking a pronounced position in defiance of Christ's teaching whether it be sexual or otherwise is a legitimate reason to exclude people from the clergy.

Having said all that if a church or group of churches wish to interpret scripture in other ways that is their right. They shall stand before the One who is capable of passing judgment and their fate is in His hands. They also carry the additional fate of, if they are willfully leading people away from the Lord, of his increased wrath. I truly hope that the ELCA has carefully considered that judgment rather than the modern perspective on equality and inclusion.

By: ghostdog on 8/26/09
Homophobic, snivling little christians. Your talking about my children, reletives and many friends. Your the reason I left the church 19 years ago and I will never return. Swaddle yourself with ignorance and non acceptance of other human beings. You get to explaine that to God. Good Luck.

By: Townie on 8/26/09
"TheJuniper"

Sounds like a bunch of made up garbage to me. Look into this guys background and tell me if he is not trying to prove this on his own behalve. The reason homosexuality runs in "family trees" the way it does is because children in those family are taught that it is okay, and then it becomes a learned behavior for them.

It is WRONG, and should not be tolerated.

By: TheJuniper on 8/26/09
"Townie"

Actually, there has been scientific research on a "homosexual" gene in the human body. Here, I'll quote it for you:

"Upon examining the family trees of the same men that on each subject's mother's side, there were markedly larger numbers of homosexual men, all stemming through the maternal lineages. This observation, along with his startling discovery on Xq28, led his findings to be dubbed the "gay gene study". The statistical probability of the 5 genetic markers on Xq28 to have matched randomly was calculated to be 1/100,000 [2], lending even more support to his findings.

This finding of a possible 'gay gene' prompts a look into two evolutionary concepts, and how they are affected. The Superior Heterozygote Theory states the phenotypic (actual) expression of homosexuality is the result of homozygosity for recessive (non-expressed but present) genes [11]. In simplification, if the person's genetic code is heterozygotic (one homosexual gene and one heterosexual gene), if the homosexual allele (half of the genetic code) is the allele passed on to the next generation, it will become the phenotype. Heterozygotes are only capable of being passed through to the next generation by mothers (as the Y-chromosome is incapable of heterozygosity), this again links homosexuality to X-linkage."

This is from www.allpsych.com, written by Ryan D. Johnson on April 30, 2003.

By: RCLutheran on 8/26/09
I see no difference in ELCA's acceptance of practicing homosexuals in the pulpic than errant Israelites marrying and accepting Baal worshipers in the Promised Land. God's actions against the Israelites are clearly documented. Baal worshippers believed that by committing sexual acts they would get the attention of their gods. God have mercy on your souls.

By: Townie on 8/26/09
Okay "TheJuniper"! You stated in your last post "seeing as many are born homosexual" and I am here to tell you that is FALSE. If people were born gay, then there would be some kind of "homosexual" gene in the human body, and since it has NEVER been scientifically or medically discovered let's please refrain from thinking homosexuality is part of the bodies genitic makeup. Thanks!


Thanks you Pastor Clarke Poorman for your strong post.

By: poisenthewell on 8/26/09
Dear pastor,why don't you spend more time thinking about your archaic 2000 year old views and stop the bigotry.

By: TheJuniper on 8/26/09
While I respect your opinion, the idea that people choose to be homosexual is severely outdated. To claim that they are "unjust" seems unfair, seeing as many are born homosexual and so, apparently, God intended them to be that way. Or is God no longer the creator of all things? You offer up some verses to back your opinion, but I don't see any that actually regard homosexuality. If "God's word is clear," could you please produce it for me?

By: myhatsin on 8/26/09
Bravo! Thank you for taking a firm stand on this issue!